Neal is the real deal. He has nothing to conceal. We're sharing it all, piecemeal.
K: Can we get fried pickles?
N: The pickles here are giant. They're crazy.
S: Actually? I was imagining like the tiny little wimpy ones..
N: Oh no, they're like.. [indicates with his hands]
K: What have you been up to today?
N: I worked on updates to Infinite Craft. The updates did not go well.
K: What do you mean?
N: I was trying to replace the LLM that I'm using. The one I'm using right now is kind of old, really expensive, and not very efficient.
K: How did that change things?
N: I thought not that much. But as soon as I changed it, the Discord blew up. And I didn't even say anything! They've been playing so long that they're attuned in a way that I'm not. I reverted it because I got scared.
K:
"The techs are no longer working.
"" Wait, what are "techs
"?
N: That's just a term they invented for a specific hack. There's so much that I don't know. "Most
importantly, the sim is now gone.
" I don't know what the sim is!
[Missing a beat. "It's like this whole emergent subculture here… [Missing a beat. “It’s like this whole emergent subculture here… "Is this intentional? Some game designers like putting people through a very curated experience — you seem to enjoy the emergent layer. How do you think about that?"]
N: [NEED ANSWER]
K: Was Infinite Craft the one that people ran with the most?
N: Definitely. It was scary because you don't know what the AI is going to say. The Mormons got really
angry at me, actually. When you put in Utah and polygamy, it would get Mormonism. They objected to that
characterization and I got a lot of emails. I'm Mormon and I put this in Infinite Craft.
K: Do people have reactions like that to other games?
N: That one's the most intense. Internet Road Trip, too.
K: Why would people be upset there?
N: I can control the speed of the car, which Street Views get picked, how intersections work. People have tools that can see what's going to happen, so if I change the logic and their tools don't line up, they get angry.
K: Has anything else taken a life of its own?
N: For Absurd
Trolley Problems, some researchers
were like, we're going to do a paper on this.
K: What?
N: [NEED ANSWER – in particular, it's so interesting the number of museums that license Neal's work, and people using it in schools. The kind of "work takes on a life of its own". Would love to know more how Neal feels about this too, beyond just stating that his games get taken in unexpected ways]
🚨 INTRIGUE BEAT 1: the wider, unexpected effects
N: I made all the questions before I knew how anyone would answer. Some ended up being 90/10, and everyone
was like, why was that even a question.
I thought it was a moral dilemma…
K: That reveals more about you, I guess.
N: There was one where you run over five crabs or a cat. Everyone was like, the five crabs.
But there's five of them!
K: The crabs would be more satisfying to crunch.
N: It actually has crunch sounds now. A sound effects guy reached out and was like, this would be
perfect for my skillset.
K: –
N: [Those are real screams or something]
K: Okay, now actually walk me through your day. Like a typical day in the life of Neal.
🚨 INTRIGUE BEAT 2: the wider, unexpected effects
N: [Neal's day – could be a time chart/dial if we want. Maybe take 'walk' literally. And get some silhouettes of him walking and make a fun visual aide.]
K: How does an idea for a game start? Do you have multiple ideas gestating, and if so, how do you keep track of them? What are some ideas you've scrapped in the past? Why? Are there any you might eventually revisit? What do you do when you're stuck?
N: [Neal brief description of Infinite Craft]
N: [Neal brief description of Cursor Camp]
🚨 INTRIGUE BEAT 3: process, sources of inspiration
K: What would you say is a significant game for you?
N: Team Fortress 2. The community aspect, and there was a whole economy behind it. I would come after school and start day trading, basically. You trade hats in the game and predict which ones will be popular. I made like 30 cents per trade.
K: Real money?
N: I mean, it's like an in-game currency, but yeah.
K: There's another one, EVE Online, that I've read a lot about but never played. It's such a steep learning curve.
N: The people who play it are insane about it. They have spreadsheets, and they'll use Jira sometimes to manage their clan and assign tasks.
K: That feels like whenever my friends are like, yo, let's play Overcooked.
I don't want to
work! Why are we working for leisure?
K: In my head, I don't picture you at home playing games.
N: I feel like games have the best user interfaces.
K: But then you're studying them. What's the last long session of a game you had?
N: Recently I've mostly played indie games. I'm not binging a game, I guess, but they're five hour stories that play over like a game.
K: Why games/what kinds of games do you wish you could see more of?
N: Games have solved so many interaction problems that nobody else in web development or SaaS has.
N: I'm so excited for you guys to play games. That's where I get like 90% of my inspiration.
S: Where's the other 10%?
N: Everything else.
K: Man, birth, death.
N: Philosophy, religion.
K: Pickles!
K: [What were the first things you did/made on the computer? How did you even get started with games?]
N: [Neal on his Scratch days]
K: [TODO: Question on Neal getting started (after childhood, Scratch). What spurred him?]
🚨 INTRIGUE BEAT 4: getting started
K: Where do you draw a line of game versus just an interactive experience? Is Wiki Spy a game?
N: I wouldn't call it a game. There's no objective or goal.
K: Is Infinite Craft a game?
N: It's interactive, but I feel like it stops short of game. People could make it a game, but as it is, it's not a game itself.
K: So open world sandboxes wouldn't be a game?
N: Well, even Minecraft has a goal and an objective.
K: What about in the sandbox mode?
N: I would consider it more of a toy. Toys are open-ended, and games are like, accomplish this.
It's actually a big controversy in the gaming community. There's this whole genre of what people call walking
simulators. There's a story, you walk around, you kind of interact with things. Some people are like, we
shouldn't consider these games because they're glorified movies.
K: Are there any mediums/formats you're especially interested in exploring?
K: Have you thought about making physical games or a toy?
N: Sounds tough. In the long run.
K: Before the theme park you probably need something first.
K: [TODO: What keeps you going? Specifically: his philosophy on web games being a totally underutilized medium]
K: [Is there something you're still trying to figure out when it comes to making games?]
K: What question do you have for our next guest?